The 101 Association, Inc.
For the preservation and enjoyment of 1928 to 1931 Indian Scout Motocycles
"You can't wear out an Indian Scout"
 

29 101 OILING Inquiry

  • 07 Mar 2017 6:37 PM
    Message # 4653740
    Anonymous

    Hi, I'm new to your Group. I found a Pretty Stock 1929 101 from Jamestown (NY) a few months ago. I have a Big Chief But this is a different Beast. I'm full of questions . Starting first Where does the Oil drip out of from on a total loss system? And I think I had a crank case full of oil as it starting to smoke when I forgot to turn off the Oil tank feed line while it sat for a few days. Ill start with this question. I found the drain for the crank case and drained it. I'll open the valve before starting again. Please advise if the Crank case needs to be drained on occasion and does the Drip system orfice clogg up , Backing up oil?

  • 08 Mar 2017 7:55 AM
    Reply # 4654596 on 4653740
    Deleted user

    Congrats to your find! Them 101's look like simple contraptions, but you'll find that the learning never stops if you get into these bikes. So, to ride it is not the only pleasure.

    The oil is consumed or wasted in a total loss system.  It is churned to a mist by the flywheels and flying to all places in the engine. Some of it is wasted out with the crankcase ventilation. Some of it gets into the combustion chamber and exits via the exhaust. The Indian is fairly tight and comparably little is leaking out at joints and shafts. An ordinary modern car engine pumps oil at the rate of tenths of liters per minute. This one pumps the oil at the rate of drops per minute. Every 19th turn of the crankshaft, a small portion of oil is released!

    Original there is only one oil petcock under the tank. That petcock is closing off the oil line from the handpump. The oil line from that is leading down right into the left crankcase half. The reason it has to be a petcock there is that the internal valves for the hand pump won't hold tight, so if the petcock is left open and the bike sit for a few days the crankcase will slowly be filled with oil. And during run, the line is subjected to the chequered crankcase pressure when pistons is going up and down, so the valves can't hold tight then either. Mainly the hand pump is used on occasions to fill up the crankcase when it is low level or totally drained. Normally the petcock is closed at all other times.

    Sometime owners fitted a petcock on the oil line to the oil pump. That is really dangerous and can become very expensive as it is easy to forget to turn it on. A fitted petcock there usually is a sign that the oil pump is worn, oil is leaking past that and filling up the crankcase when the bike sits for a length of time. The construction of the oil pump normally ensures that no (or very little) oil is leaking past it, but a worn, wrong assembled or tampered pump starts to leak through. 

    The oil pump is manually adjusted to the amount of oil the engine wants. It is impossible to tell a specific setting, it has to be checked regularly.  The engine consume oil a bit different depending to the road, speed and air temperature. Tough going, high speed, a lot of hills, a lot of on and off throttle and high heat will use up more oil than parade running and short drives in cool weather. So you need to keep an eye on the oil level in the crankcase. 

    There is 2 plugs low on the left side crankcase, the bottom one is the draining plug and top one is the level plug. The bike should rest on the rear stand so the engine is not leaning when checking the level. When you remove that top plug, my preference is that it should come out a small portion of oil. At least some drops to ensure that the level is on top. If no oil is coming out I open up the pump a bit. If a lot of oil is running out, I reduce the pump a bit. 

    I am cautious and don't want my engine to go dry so I sometimes allow up to and at the maximum 100cc to come out before I adjust the pump! If no oil is coming out I immediately open the pump a bit. But it might be that your engine smokes excessively with the oil level too high. The pump is adjusted on the hex head screw in the front, and at the extreme 1/2 a turn at a time! Mostly it is only 1/8th or 1/4 a turn. I don't know what pump is on your engine, the adjustment is opposite on the 2 versions that is mounted original, so I can't tell if the screw is turned in or out to increase delivery.

    I know constant checking of the oil level is cumbersome and greasy, but it is necessary to learn the engine consumption. It will stabilise and you'll learn in time when you need to open up or close the pump. Draining the crankcase is good to do now and then. Spill on a large bright pan to check for debri from bushings, bearings and that kind of wear and a big syringe with mineral spirit or the like will flush out the remains. 

    You can be surprised by the oil consumption before you get the pump right so bring a can of oil with you as backup! It is the same with gas consumption as there is no reserve, I have been stranded more than once!

    The oil line down to the pump is large and there is no orifices in the pump or in the engine that can clog up normally, it would take a lot of lint or foreign objects to do that. The risk is if something drops into the tank and obstruct the inlet to the pump or the tube inlet. If the tank has been dry it is imperative to bleed the tube down at the pump. Open up the fillister screw just under the fitting and bleed long and thoroughly to remove any air pocket. 

    Keep an eye on the oil level in the clutch compartment. That and the gearbox is connected so they use the same oil. I use the same oil there as in the engine. Sometimes if the cork ring in the drive gear is worn, the engine can either suck or pump in excessive oil into the compartment and then the oil level in the engine is impossible to get right. A tell tale is if the gearbox tower is oily, or the gearbox leaks a lot of oil, then the cork ring can be suspected in many cases.

    Last modified: 09 Mar 2017 10:38 AM | Deleted user
  • 08 Mar 2017 11:30 AM
    Reply # 4654994 on 4653740
    Anonymous

    Wow, Thank you Carl For The Extensive Info. I love this Machine. I own several bikes, A knuckle and Pan and 46 Chief, I've always wanted an earlier bike, The cruder the better for me. Thanks for your info and getting to know the members and pic upon there long expertise. It came with some extra parts. I'll advertise after I sort out what I need. It runs ok . I think it may need Magneto timing, But that's another story. 

  • 09 Mar 2017 9:57 AM
    Reply # 4656804 on 4653740
    Deleted user

    There is not many parts that can break in the pump. However, rust can be an issue! The pump is a fairly simple "variable displacement piston pump". A drum in the housing is driven by the cam worm gear and 2 pistons travel in and out in bores drilled in that drum. When the drum is turned to a certain position, a inlet port opens and during a period, the piston retracts and oil is filling up the bore, then the drum continues to turn and another port opens and the piston push the oil out into the cam compartment. The ports are wide so no oil pressure is produced in the pump. The piston stroke is decided by a swash plate at the front end of the pump. The swash plate pivots on a pin, the pin ends are visible on the outside of the pump. The attack angle of that swash plate is decided by the adjusting screw. Illustrated principles can easily be found on the net.

    I found out in one of my pumps, that it had rusted badly in the forward compartment where the adjusting screw is and that rust had frozen the swash plate on the pivot pin, so any adjustment had become impossible. Not exactly impossible as the screw could push the swash plate in, but the pistons rebound springs wasn't able to push back the plate if the screw was retracted. That in fact is really serious malfunction as the pump only could be adjusted to less delivery and if I hadn't found that, the engine had been starved from oil eventually. Other faults can be one or both broken springs or that one or both pistons is rusted solid in the bores!

    It can be checked fairly easy if you remove the screw (keep the setting of the stopnut intact!!) Insert a thin metal rod, i use a drill shank as it can't break like wood or plastic can do, in the hole and carefully push on it to feel that the swash plate do indeed spring in and out to the same position. The movement is only a few mm's and the force of the 2 piston rebound springs inside is not very strong, maybe a couple of kilos...turn the engine some 15-20 turns to check if the spring rebound is equally strong and the swash plate returns to roughly the same position, if not maybe one piston is stuck. Or if the pump is off, use a loose cam to turn the drum inside the pump. It doesn't harm the pump to spray some rust preventing oil in that forward compartment on occation.

    Another thing to check, is the state the cam bushing is in the cam cover. A worn bushing makes the cam rattle and a rattling cam wears on the worm gear in the drum. The teeth in the drum is small and if worn too thin they can break. If they break the cam worm can make all sorts of unspeakable mess!

    Last modified: 09 Mar 2017 11:13 AM | Deleted user
  • 25 Apr 2025 5:52 PM
    Reply # 13491925 on 4653740

    Hello 101 team, i recently fired up my Indian after total rebuild. Could anyone tell me the starting procedure regarding oil. I read indian lubrication broschure but there is no info which I need. 

    Do I have to drain oil from upper plug before every starting the bike? If Yes do I have to pump the oil by hand pump? If Yes how much oil has to be pumped?

  • 06 May 2025 4:06 PM
    Reply # 13496059 on 4653740

    Hello is there someone who can describe me starting procedure reg.oil?

  • 07 May 2025 7:18 AM
    Reply # 13496249 on 4653740

    Hello Maciek Cizynski

    Sorry you did not get an answer to your question.

    The basics are simple and are these:

    You must keep a certain level of oil in the crackcase sump for the spinning flywheel to spread around in a "fog" of oil which will lubricate the cylinder walls during periods they are exposed when the pistons rise. Oil passing the rings when a piston descends and creates pressure in the crankcase will be forced into the combustion area and what little is not burned will drain down and lubricate the valve guides. 101's did not have oil sealing rings to allow some oil to pass to do this lubrication. The downside of this is there will be eventually an accumulation of burned oil that will need to be removed or particles of it could hold open a valve. To remove these hard, black "coke" deposits you will need to remove the heads and carefull scrape the coke away.

    There are two holes on the lower side of the crankcase which have threaded plugs. The upper hole sets the required oil level for the lower part of the flywheel to run in. Initially or when needed, use the hand pump to fill the crankcase until an excess of oil comes out that topmost hole. Check this oil level frequently by opening the hole to see if excess oil comes out or, if no oil comes out, indicates you need to pump in oil into the crankase until oil does come out. 

    You will need to try to get the automatic oiler ("oil pump") adjusted to maintain oil in the sump to replace what is lost through (1) case joint leaks, (2) crankcase "breathing" pressure and (3) oil passing the rings. During the oiler adjustment period you may need to stop during riding and check the oil level at the topmost hole as often as every 5 miles at first, going longer distances as you get the pump closer to matching oil consumption. 

    The oiler on my 101's are well set but still whenever I am done riding for a day I open that top hole to be sure there is enough oil there for the next ride, draining out any excess or pumping in what is needed. 

    It is not really possible to sense if the cranckase oil level is too low to lubricate the engine unless your legs are very sensitive to an increase in heat. When the engine seems unable to maintain RPM's you are one or a few minutes from the engine stalling from lack of lubrication - I happen to know this.

    It is easy to know if the automatic oiler is sending too much oil into the crankcase - you will see  an abnormal amount of smoke coming out the crankcase breather tube and out the exhaust and you will certainly sense the engine is working hard against an increase in crankcase pressure.

    The hand pump works best if you close the valve at the pump when drawing up oil and opening the valve when you push the pump's plunger down, sending oil into the crackcase, repeating this procedure. Slow strokes are ususally needed to avoid so much pressure in the pump that it is forced out around the plunger shaft and onto the top of your fuel tank.

    Use the bottom hole of the crankcase to periodically drain out old oil and sediment, then fully refill with fresh oil using the hand pump unti it starts to come out the top hole.

    The sealed primary case (which shares oil with the gear box) also has an oil level check hole you should check often. On some 101's with wear, oil can leak past a seal at the crankshaft and into the sealed primary, raising the oil level too high in the primary. I check this after several daily rides. 

    I use all kinds of oils in my 101's depending on my whim at the time: single viscosities of 40 or 50, multigrade viscosities topping out at 40 or 50, petroleum based oils, synthetic oils. Its my opinion the differences do not matter, unless you often ride in very cold weather where a lower viscosity oil or a low multigrade provides startup lubrication intil the engine heats the oil. 

    I use any of these in the primary and gear box too, but mostly I have been using automatic transmission fluid (ATF) type F1. For a while I was using B&M Trick Shift ATF I I had a case of 12 liters) because it is very transparent and a ligh blue color and allowed me to detect any engine oil getting past the crankshaft seal and into the primary - which is an occasional problem with one of my 101's. 

    I just typed this quickly and I hope there are no errors; if ther are, others will correct them I hope.

    I replaced the simple threaded plugs for the topmost hole in my 101's with needle valves for faster opening and closing with no tools needed to check the oil level here and spare the threads in the aluminum case from wear or damage.

    Bob


    Last modified: 07 May 2025 7:28 AM | Robert Lodge
  • 07 May 2025 7:47 AM
    Reply # 13496256 on 4653740
    Tim Raindle (Administrator)

    The upper plug on the left hand side isthe level plug, so, with the bike on the rear stand on level ground, remove it and let oil drain to this level before starting.Then replace plug before starting/riding.

    This is the required level of oil, so you should not need to add more from the hand pump before starting.

    If no oil comes out, add oil from hand primer until a dribble comes out.

    Check level frequently initially, to ensure that you are oiling correctly. Say after 10 miles, then 20, etc, for the first few runs. If no oil comes out, add oil from hand primer until it does, and adjust oil pump.

    Check oil line is clear and does not have an air lock by draining oil line thru bleeder screw on pump just below where the oil line attaches, if you have drained the tank or removed the line for any reason.


    Last modified: 07 May 2025 7:52 AM | Tim Raindle (Administrator)
  • 07 May 2025 4:46 PM
    Reply # 13496521 on 4653740

    Thank you so much. Now it will be easier to start playing with this bike!!!

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