The 101 Association, Inc.
For the preservation and enjoyment of 1928 to 1931 Indian Scout Motocycles
"You can't wear out an Indian Scout"
 

piston rings

  • 16 Aug 2015 5:51 PM
    Message # 3482454
    Anonymous

    I'm ready to fit my pistons and cylinders ... I purchased a pair of very nice pistons and rings from Randy Walker ... they are 4 ring pistons with an oil control ring ... what is the gap for the top three rings ... and should I fit the oil control ring ? if so should I gap it big and what would be the recommended gap ??    thanks in anticipation ...

  • 17 Aug 2015 8:12 AM
    Reply # 3483859 on 3482454
    Tim Raindle (Administrator)

    Hi James, yes to oil control ring, and we gap them here at about 0.017" . The rings may well fit around this figure anyway. 

    Specs for piston size on air cooled motor say about 0.012 " , but total loss sidevalve runs a touch hotter than recirculating oil motors. If you have a medium bore finish , you could take that down to 015 if you run the motor in very carefully , a polished plateau finish err on the side of caution . 

    Carl-Erik ?

  • 17 Aug 2015 2:32 PM
    Reply # 3484785 on 3482454
    I bring up ring sealing as that is often the reason for so much trouble, many times more than the ring gap. 


    Ring sealing is dependent on cylinder bore finish in conjunction with what material and coating the piston rings are made of. In order to make an educated choice you need to positively know what hardness in the cylinder material you got and consult the ring manufacturer directly about the bore hone finish and ring material and gap they recommend. BUT what is essential basic truth for ring sealing is straight round perpendicular bores.

    I could stop here...

    But as I am chatty...

    My opinion is that hand honing should be out of the question except at a shade tree temporary repair, basicly that will result in inconsistent and uncontrollable hone finish. A surface too fine and the rings can't settle, too coarse and wear is an issue, too shallow crosshatch angle and the oil consumption is rich, too steep crosshatch and the lubrication will suffer.

    Plateau finish is, like Tim is mentioning, err on the side of caution if you don't have access to tools to measure the surface. In a blink, you can make the grooves too shallow for the rings to set easily. One source says plateau finished depth of the valleys should be in the order of Rz 100-125 microinches (2.5-3.2 micrometers), while the bearing surface will be Rz 25-40 Microinches (0.6-1.0 micrometers)...but it doesn't mention the important cylinder hardness or ring surface material.

    Honing with torque plates is not essential with the later Sport Scout cylinders from the results that I have seen, the distortion wasn't measurable in those cases, but the top and base surfaces where just skimmed and threads where fine. The 101 cylinders that has the headbolts closer to the bore would probably be helped with torque plates, but I don't know.

    A bore honing example of a car cylinder bore in an article with torque plate showed a visible  pattern after very light honing. The bolt tension made local distortion at the bolt holes and the bore showed a star pattern.

    Hot honing can be helping a little with reducing bore distortion, (then in combination with torque plates) as the cylinder do distort when heated as the bore has unequal amount of material around the perifery, but it will not replicate the off center heat a flathead will endure when run.

    Cleaning afterwards is so important for ring longetivity. It's better be done vigorously with a hard bristle nylon scrubbing brush and soap and hot water..

    I agree with Tim on 0.015-17" (0,40-0,43mm) ring end gap. That's safe. 0.014-15 (0,37-0,40) for the second and oil ring should be viable. Oil consumption is not the main issue in our engines. Top ring baseline endgap is 0.003/in. bore for a modern water cooled car engine, and our air cooled flathead should be at minimum with 0.004 inch for every inch of bore diameter in a new honed cylinder with new rings. 2,87 x 0.004 is about 0.012". The gap will widen a tiny bit when the rings and cylinders are run-in. But If in doubt, this is one instance where more is better than less -a ring endgap that butts from thermal expansion is really bad.

    I have to edit a bit since Hastings recommend a minimum of 0.0035" per inch bore for a normal car engine. A normal automobile engine today run some 3,5-4" bore that'll give a ring gap of minimum 0.012-0.014" ring gap depending on bore size. Tim's recommendation of 0.015-17" in our engines is good.

    Last modified: 28 Aug 2015 12:05 PM | Carl-Erik Renquist
  • 18 Aug 2015 10:08 AM
    Reply # 3485909 on 3482454
    Tim Raindle (Administrator)

    Interstingly enough, fitted a pair of +020 pistons yesterday. The "fresh out of the box" rings were variable on the bores , ring gaps on 3 compression rings at 016 , three at less than ten , one oil ring at 014, and one with virtually no gap at all, measured at the same point in the same bore, and also on a standard ring sizer. I was quite surprised to say the least. Cross hatch and finish is critical too, any cross hatching needs to be at 45 degrees. Size and finish, use a competant professional if possible, and don't let them sway you to fit pistons at 0.0025-0.003 or recut your valve seats to 45 degrees " because thats the way we do all our harleys  and ducatis ".


    Lots of interesting reading here :- 

    https://www.hastingspistonrings.com/


    but cross reference to total loss sidevalve is hard to find. We use a 220 grit hone and black oxide/manganese phosphate coated cast iron /ductile iron ring.


  • 19 Aug 2015 4:43 AM
    Reply # 3487322 on 3482454
    Anonymous

    Thanks for the advice .... Nearly there ..

  • 28 Aug 2015 11:33 AM
    Reply # 3500165 on 3482454

    http://www.enginebuildermag.com/2000/09/cylinder-bore-surface-finishes/

    http://www.enginebuildermag.com/2002/11/the-smooth-science-of-cylinder-honing/

    Last modified: 28 Aug 2015 11:35 AM | Carl-Erik Renquist
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