The 101 Association, Inc.
For the preservation and enjoyment of 1928 to 1931 Indian Scout Motocycles
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FLOAT BOWL / PETCOCK LEAK

  • 23 Jul 2015 3:53 AM
    Message # 3445807

     

    Good morning.

    I have a fuel leak from the top joint of my 101's float bowl which is only apparent when the bike is parked up.  This has highlighted two issues for me: a. petcock not sealing and b. float needle not sealing.

    Petcock first... I removed and stripped it, prepared to change the cork seal, or lap the sealing faces; however I found no seal and no obvious seating face, just a brass spigot which is screwed/unscrewed to uncover the inlet/oulet ports.  On my petcock the sealing of these ports is not effective and allows a steady drip of fuel.  I cannot see any way to lap or seal this.  Is this normal or is my petcock missing something?  Is there a way of improving this?  Or if not, who sells good, effective petcocks?

    Second issue is the float needle.  My (brass) float has no leaks and is free to move inside the bowl, when fitted to the carb, a Schebler DLX. The needle is free to move within its tube and contacts the seat when the float is floating.  I have removed the needle and seat and have lapped them so there appears to be an effective seal.  The seat is fitted into the bowl with a sealing washer of 1/32nd thickness.  I have set my float height from the top of the float to the top face of the float bowl. But when the float bowl fills, the needle does not seal and causes the bowl to flood.  Have I missed something?  Has anyone else had this issue? Is there a common cause of float level problems.  I have cured this on other bikes by fitting Viton-tipped needles, are these available for the DLX?

    Thanks! 

  • 23 Jul 2015 4:40 PM
    Reply # 3447037 on 3445807
    Deleted user

    i don't have my R&O here at the office but i seem to remember the distance from top of float to top edge of bowl to be 7/16.  i'll verify that when i get home tonight.  

    i haven't had problems with my petcock yet, but will be interested in hearing anyone else respond to your question.

    Best,

    Bart


  • 24 Jul 2015 8:26 AM
    Reply # 3447838 on 3445807

    According to the book, the float should be floating horisontal on the gas surface 7/16" below the bowl rim measured on top of the float. Now watch out! The important gas level is depending on your float shape, material and boyancy if it is heavy or light! More correct is to measure the gas surface level! I have old personal notes of gas surface level 18mm below the rim but...I think that is one or two millimeters too low and when I now do a quick check with just WATER!, the level is 15mm, so I am not certain. Oh, I discovered the seat is worn after roughly 4 riding seasons of neglect...

    The gas surface level is important, if it is too low your motor is very hard to start especially cold and may need choke even warm, and also if it is too high the fuel consumption is suffering. A well tuned carb would seldom need much choke on a warm day even starting cold, and never need choke when warm.

    The main reason for a leaking carb in most cases is a worn float needle and seat. The needle is hammered down in the seat and the sealing surface becomes too wide. As the needle can't seal in another position than one, any canting will result in a leak. The float is rocking on its pivot pin, together with wear on the tiny ball (it's hollow!) on the top of the needle, so the needle is rarely guided properly.

    The seat needs to be just a horse hair wide and rounded so the needle can seal in all positions it can assume. The rounded seat is accomplished with (10 minutes of) hard finger pressure on the needle in a circular pattern. The tip needs to be close to a mirror finish and the top ball and its seat is better to be polished as well. In my experience, any use of lapping compound coarser than toothpaste will result in failure to get the needle to seal.

    Done properly and with care, to restore the seat and an old needle is possible in most cases. It is a bit complicated to describe without pictures, but doesn't take a lot of special tools, just a Dremel and a electric drill so if anyone interested, send me a mail.
    Viton tipped needles for Linkerts has been floating around with diversed results, with some gas concoctions sold today the tip has been found to swell. I don't think it is available for our needles and as the needle cants with the poor guidance there is, a rounded seat is still needed.

    The float can act up in some cases, it can unfasten from the pivot hinge or the hinge and its shaft become so worn and allow the float to catch on the bowl sides. A tight carb can start to leak just by putting the bike on the sidestand as the float rocks the needle. A miniature reamer for the pivot and a oversize pin is one way to fix that. Or the float can become logged with gas, swell or break. But mainly the reason for a leaking bowl is a worn needle and seat.

    If you decide to change float, (strongly recommended in my opinion) go for the lightest possible new material foam float. They will keep the float level most constant and produce less wear on the needle/seat. I prefer those that has been developed by Tom Cotten.  The heavier float, the more needle seat wear, as a heavy float bounces and allow higher amplitude vibrations. The brass is one of, if not the heaviest on the market!

    Indian Parts Europe (IPE) is stocking them new fangled floats and also selling excellent repro original looking petcocks. The gas petcock has a viton or ptfe tip and the oil petcock is lined with PTFE. To restore the seat in the gas petcock body isn't impossible but that requires a small cutter for the seat, and to regrind or turn the spigot tip. Or maybe you can adapt a plastic tip on the old one. Again it is hard to succeed with grinding compound. One idea would be to turn a hardwood stick with the proper angle, to use for carefully polish up the seat in the body? But I haven't tried that.

    Last modified: 24 Jul 2015 9:02 AM | Carl-Erik Renquist
  • 24 Jul 2015 9:53 AM
    Reply # 3447936 on 3445807
    Tim Raindle (Administrator)

    Conrad Lytel makes and sells good repro petcocks to original spec, no need to change gas line set up that way. Think Randy Walker stocks them too. Later chief ones available from Greers same threads, non judgeable but cheaper. Some euro ones look same but have a flat compression washer on the gas line end. 

    Old fix for needle seats is a light lap, cigarette ash a very fine grinding paste , works a treat on old Amals. 

  • 24 Jul 2015 2:52 PM
    Reply # 3448329 on 3445807

    Thanks all.

    After a fifth night of trying, I had come to the conclusion that it's the ball end catching in the forks of the float rocker arm which is causing my trouble.  It appears to hit the seat very canted and consequently doesn't seal.  That'll be why I don't get issues with the bike running, vibrations will allow it to jiggle into place. I'll be having the carb to pieces yet again to polish up the ball end and the fork arms this weekend. I use tooth powder as a lapping compound on things like this.  I have a Cotten float on my 'things to do' list but was a tiny bit worried about its ethanol resistance with the rubbish fuels we have here in UK now (I have had issues on other bikes).

    My petcock I think is a lost cause.  It's obviously a pattern part and I don't think it's the best quality.  My trouble mainly is that I don't really understand how it seals. Is there supposed to be a sealing face below the shaft threads?  Or is the hollow spigot on the end of the shaft supposed to be a tighter fit in the bore of the main body?   Tim, I'm not aware of Conrad Lytel - what name does he trade under?

    I do have my float level a little too high, too

  • 26 Jul 2015 9:14 AM
    Reply # 3449798 on 3445807

    OK, re-lapped, polished both ends of the needle, float level set perfectly. No leaks whatsoever, even when leaning over at Jiffy stand angles.  Went out for a ride, about an hour round the local lanes, and when I park up afterwards, the damn leak's back! Driving me nuts, this one is.

    Next stage is Cotten float and reworked and polished float fork I think.

  • 03 Aug 2015 11:25 AM
    Reply # 3462800 on 3445807
    Anonymous

    If my gas tank has set empty for any length of time, a little rust dust will get in the gas and becomes impossible to stop float overflow. Make sure you got nice clean fuel.

  • 05 Aug 2015 4:33 AM
    Reply # 3465425 on 3445807

    Hello Stuart , I have repaired leaking petrol taps (of the screw in type) by just tinning the cone tip , the soft solder forms a new seat and seals very well . Have done this on a number of bikes as have friends and always seals the petrol tap well . Best of luck , Ken

  • 25 Aug 2015 4:19 AM
    Reply # 3494928 on 3445807

    I have finally got to the bottom of my leak issue!

    Having recut the seat, reground and polished the needle for yet another time and still got the leak, I locked the needle onto its seat on the valve, immersed it in water and pressurise the assembly.  I found bubbles coming not from the needle/seat, but from underneath the seat itself.

    The seat is a separate brass component, pressed into the valve body at an interference fit. My valve seat was not fully home in the body, allowing fuel to leak through from underneath it, an unregulated flow past the needle valve into the bowl.

    I have pressed the seat fully home, and run a bead of solder around the joint.  There is now no noticeable leak at the valve.

    Thanks to all for your help with this problem!

    Cheers; Stuart

     

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